Is there any resource available that might indicate required consulting man-days for particular NAV modules? I am working in a NAV vendor where the consultants are insisting on 80 man days for a standard financials implementation, but in 2 previous similar companies I have found 40 to be adequate, even less. Obviously all projects are different, but for standard, non-customised modules I am trying to get a view on how other vendors experience man day requirements across the different NAV modules.
It gets worse: we have a specific sector manufacturing vertical which is taking 350+ days to implement but we are only able to charge 120 to remain competitive. Something is wrong somewhere: I believe in the past scope of work has not been defined clearly enough, but take it from me that is definitely not the whole story, if we have a vertical for a particular industry then surely 350+ days is silly numbers. I am not very technical but I need to initiate some debate in our company so any help or advice would be appreciated. If anyone has verticals experience, your typical man day requirement would be very interesting to me if in context.
Hi John, this is a very interesting topic, and one very close to my heart, I started a blog about this some time ago which might be worth reading :
If it takes one person 10 days to dig a ditch, how long does it take 10 people to dig the same ditch?
and also these:
What if Homer Simpson became a Navision consultant?## The most powerful tool that a Dynamics NAV consultant can use.
The first thing to know is that consulting is measured in Hours, when people start talking Days and Weeks or even months as the base unit, I always get concerned. Since the minimum unit of measure significantly affects the total project cost. I report may take 3 hours to do, but if the min unit is day then it will take one day. (I am not talking about for billing purposes, but I mean for budgeting.)
My business model is based around showing Navision customers how to reduce the cost of their implementations, so this is something I have experience in this.
Of course its important to realize that every client is different, and I have seen implementations that took 6 weeks, and those that took 4 years. In most cases this is because of the customer, not the partner.
The next thing is hourly rates. It costs a certain amount of money to run a business, and on top of that you want to make a profit. Why bother selling Navision if it does not make a profit. But as we see a lot of different sources of Navision resources, most of very dubious quality, we see hourly rates dropping, but number of hours going up significantly. As an example I have compared implementation costs using “off shore” vs “in house” consultants and developers, and found that you need an 8:1 factor to match. So if your company are trying to offer cheap hourly rates, then they need to budget approximately 8 times more hours because of the lower quality of work.
All in all though, this is a major issue in the Navision world today, and the net effect is that the cost to implement Navision is going to increase dramatically unless customers can look at ROI and total cost of owner ship of their project rather than just looking at hourly rates.
My point exactly. Ours is recognised as probably one of the most complex processes but similar companies tell me they do it in 100 days or so. I think I need to get someone in to look at the architecture of our software and also ther competence of the people we have; I am not the right one to judge. We are about to do a .Net version but I am scared if we do not address the basic issues now (whatever they transpire to be) we will just have a .Net version problem similar to what we have now.
Read it. Interesting (and frightening!). I need to look at the fundamentals here clearly, I’ll report back on progress. Clearly we do not have a vertical, we have a very customisable manufacturing module and possibly very poor competence in-house to do it. Regardless, 350 days is a joke. I think the approach might be to look at hours per task rather than days as suggested earlier. interestingly, as David referred to, I asked one of my staff about required man-days and he responded in months! This makes David’s point really.
What does “350+ days” mean? Is it 350 calendar days from point T in time, or is it a budgetting measure expressed in number of days on your bill? When “similar” companies tell you they’ve done it in 100 days, are they talking about calendar days or number of days on the bill? One team might be able to do in 100 days what another team might be able to do in 350 days, and the difference is the experience of the team members, and what you pay for that experience. The first team’s high rate might be cheaper than the 350 day team, when all is said and done, when you take into consideration all the work you need to put in to fix all the mistakes with the lack of experience that you are talking about. What type of people are in that team? What are the requirements? Did you do any analysis of how well the software meets your requirements? How do you even know that this vertical that you speak of is the right product?
By the way, 350 days is not unheard of. Just think of a team of a few consultants, a few developers, a trainer, a project manager, it’s not that hard to get to 350 days of work. I’ve been involved in many NAV projects of that scale.
To answer your questions and comments, all of which are good points:
It is 350 man days actually on site over usually a 6 month period. Similar companies are citing 100 man days over maybe 2-3 months
Agreed on the experience relevance and that is clearly a factor which I think is going to prove highly pivotal. I think a talent transfusion is in order and the owners (living overseas) are possibly not techno-savvy enough to realise the situation they are in and to an extent have been hoodwinked into believing the inevitability of the status quo.
The only comparrisons I have are with the US and Europe. Granted, we are in Asia
Reading your response, you have possibly mistakenly interpreted us to be the end user, we are not, we are the vendor. I have the task of putting things right so welcome any constructive input along the way. My background is in running a standard NAV company where everything is a standard implementation plus customisation of standard NAV modules so I have the experience to know roughtly what to expect in those cases. Here and now, I have a ‘vertical’ (although I think not) where everyone just explains away the longevity on the complexity of the sector we are in. Nobody can answer me when ask them to square the circle of why, if we are telling clients we are 80% done in the vertical already, it takes so long! I am getting there slowly but realise there is a lot of experience on the forum that might be able to help. We are generating plenty of interest but not able to close enough projects and the problem is quite clearly in the competitiveness with full customisation offerings and other true verticals maybe not on the NAV platform so not incurring the large licence costs.
Thanks for all the input, it is helping build a picture.
The point is… you can’t make any blanket statements about how much time any implementation takes, because it always depends on the requirements. The requirements drive the implementation cost. If you have a vertical for a specific market, then this should cover a large portion of the requirements, but you’re still going to have to do a round of analysis and design. You can say you’re only going to take 100 days, and limit the scope to whatever you can accomplish in that time, but then the customer would need to know that they are going to have to abandon some of their requirements. You’d still need to map out ALL requirements, and then let the customer choose which ones are critical to them. How you manage this depends on the implementation methodology you choose, but if the customer chooses more than can realistically be accomplished in the time, they need to be told they are putting the timeline (and the budget) at risk.
To me it sounds like the expectation that has been set with the customer is that “the vertical” has everything they need. If it is not a vertical then don’t call it a vertical! That sets expectations right there. What really needs to be done is set better expectations with the customer, and make them aware that it only covers so much and that it will need to be modified to fit their needs. If your vertical only covers a small portion of the common functionality in your market, then sorry to say this but it doesn’t sound like a very good vertical, and you might want to think about developing the vertical a bit further.
You read me wrong, I do not think you are an end user. All I said is that if I were you I would be very worried. After reading this last post I would say if I were your customer I would be worried… You are in charge of putting things right, but you don’t know how to do that…
First I want to wish you luck, and say that I admire what you are trying to do. Especially its great to see someone in your situation calling out for help. I have been involved with a lot of companies in the same situation as you, and its rare to see someone with the courage to ask for help. [Y]
So now the tough stuff.
Unfortunately I really don’t see that you are going to be able to change much.
Firstly you need to work out what is the underlying issue that you are trying to resolve, and what will happen if you resolve this. And I think that everyone that you need to help you to make this work; actually benefit from the current situation. So its going to be hard to get help from the inside.
Thanks. DenSter is correct, right now I am not sure what to do, but contrary to his suggestion my customers do not need to be worried, I am not an idiot and will sort it out. I have a track record going back 15+ years of doing it and I do not intend to start failing here.
Where I think the opportunity lies is that we need to do a .Net version and if done properly this may be an opportunity to solve some of the issues. The issues are as much organisational as anything which you astutely picked up on (we are Middle East owned and unfortunately loyalty comes before all else, regardless of competence, and we have some impediments in the company on the programming side). I have worked in Saudi an North Africa so have some experience of this, but clearly product issues exist. Scope of work seems endless (poor project documentation and management) and, as I myself suggested before someone else did, I am fairly sure what we have is not a vertical in the true sense.
What difference does it make whether you have a C/AL version or a .NET version? That is not going to solve anything. The same functionality developed in different technologies will result in the same poor coverage of requirements. Developing directly in NAV is much more efficient anyway. A team of skilled NAV developers will take about half the time to develop business logic against a team of skilled .NET developers working on the same requirements.
What it sounds like to me is that you are a .NET developer, have no clue about NAV development, and you are more comfortable working with .NET than you are with NAV. You are trying to fix things with technology, where you should focus your attention on making your product mee the requirements of the market.
Sometimes, especially in IT related industry, there is no substitute for what an amazing project manager can accomplish. Finding somebody who can organize things, and take large complicated processes and cut them up into little simplistic bite sized chunks can really make your life easier, especially if this person is NAV / Tech / Industry savy. They make the project go smoothly, and can make the customer happy…sometimes. (I am not talking about micromanagement of your staff of course… thats never good).
It’s just that … bad customers love bad documentation, bad process mapping and poor market analysis. Maybe it does not need to be said, but it is something to consider. It’s not my belief that anyone ever goes into business with the purpose of screwing you over, but I promise you that you will find a customer some day that you will give an inch, and they will take a mile… and you will regret them for the rest of your career … if you still have one when its over.
If your paperwork is bad, and you’re offering to do an implementation 20 days outside what is projected from your competitors… you almost have to wonder why the customer is choosing you. Especially when you yourself know that you’re going to eat the cost of 230+ days of that implementation and you claim to have bad documentation… ouch.
David & DenSter make extremely knowledgeable and valid points. I understand that YOU may have 15+ years of experience, and that is fantastic. But that doesn’t mean you are invulnerable to the failings of your associates. Never underestimate the power of an imbecile, especially if they travel in numbers.
The fact that I am on here trying to learn from others shows i am not unaware of the dangers of the situation. The opportunity with the .Net I am referring to is to get some fresh talent in or even sub-contract the project out, something of a fresh start. Clearly I have problems in-house which I will solve in time but maybe not overnight due to the corporate culture and ownership issues I have hinted at above.
As for why customers chose us, firstly we are a very good sales outfit and secondly the product is very good. The issue is making the business model workable for us and controlling scope of work I think.
For the record we just signed 2 more projects this week - not sure if that is good news for me or not! However, I am controlling scope much more tightly now which shoud help. Also for the record we are profitable and my career is in good shape, - no idea why people are getting personal. I am just trying to get some diferent perspectives, perhaps that wasn’t such a good idea reading some of the responses. Also remember I am in Asia in a developing country and that makes a difference.
I had a two page dissertation about all the things that are wrong in this picture, but I decided to just let this one go. I feel sorry for the customers that put their trust in your organization. They purchased NAV and trust your organization to be able to implement it, which it is painfully clear you are not able to do. I wish you would search for the right type of people and resources (one hint: posting questions in online forums, and hiring .NET developers is NOT the right type of people/resources) to bring these projects to a successful conslusion.
Clearly you are intent on being as offensive and insulting as possible without knowing all the facts, only what I choose to and feel able to share.
Firstly, our customers on the whole are happy - we have no end of positive references from major world players in our vertical sector which is an immensely complex manufacturing sector, They pay a fixed project price and we are absorbing the extra man days which is where I need to improve things. I am not seeking solutions on here, merely input from others who may have a perspective before deciding what I am going to do about it. I am talking to lots of people, have brought in people from the outside to take a look at a few things and saw no harm in allowing others to take a view in places like this. As you made the obvious but correct point, I need the correct resources and you can trust that I am working on that - I hardly see bringing in some quality .Net programmers as a backwards step in developing the .Net version we need. I am experienced enough and well paid enough to figure out how we can make our projects more successful for us internally, as that is the issue. I also joined the company a few months ago, from another NAV solution provider where I was successful enough to be recommended by someone from Microsoft ASIAPAC HQ for the job, so feintly hidden suggestions that I am an idiot are of little value or concern to me.
I joined hoping for a better quality of response, friendly even, but have decided not to bother with the forum further. I joined 2 different ones at the same time and the other one is proving much more constructive and a bit more fun.
Thanks anyway for your responses and like you said, no need to reply as you have let it go.
I reply to the facts that you present, so don’t make me look like the bad guy for not taking something into account that you haven’t told us about yet. I read my prior responses I don’t find anything offensive or insulting in there. All I try to do is give you my take on it, my opinion, and I even wished you good luck. Everyone has an opinion, and I don’t pretend to know everything about anything or anyone, I just reply to what is posted in these topics. By the third reply it was obvious that you did not intend to listen to criticism, so I decided to let it go.
You came in here looking for opinions, and now that you got one that you don’t like, you act indignant. You clearly knew there is something wrong about your situation, and you got an opinion that reflects that. It’s like a woman asking her husband if a pair of jeans makes her ass look big. Does she want to hear the truth “yes your ass is huge”, or does she want to get a compliment “no babe your ass looks spectacular”? If you already think something is not right (which we both know you did), then don’t be surprised if someone actually comes out and tells you what they think is wrong. Do you want to surround yourself with yes men or do want to truly improve the situation?
If you read that I think you are an idiot in any of my messages you must have this image of yourself, because I never intended that. How could I, I don’t even know you. Believe me if I thought you were an idiot I would tell you in big red letters. Don’t try to read between the lines. What I did do is overestimate you, I thought you would have the ability to take criticism and take a look at your own postings, but I was wrong.
Like I said earlier, I wish you would get the right people, and earn the trust that your customers put in you, and successfully conclude every project. I wish you nothing but the best, I honestly do, but I don’t think (which means “in MY opinion, without knowing all the facts”) the way you are going about (at least the very few details that you cared to share with us) it is the right way.
I hope you have not left, but if you have good luck.
In a direct answer to your original posting:
1 - no there is no resource available that indicates the required consulting “man-days” for NAV modules, but you know this with your history [:D] Difficult to comment on the locality and the complexity, but as others have stated I have seen “standard” implementations range dramatically.
2 - 350 days to implement a “vertical” is simply horrendous. 120 actually invoiced and 230 written off as a loss for your company then it does not take a genius to tell you something is horribly wrong, but again you know this. If the vertical is integrated into the system then I would expect a minimal impact, lets say 20%, so 16 days on your 80 days. I am sure I have missed something in the post, but if you implement over 80 days and it takes a further 350 to implement your vertical - then what the hell is your vertical? Soundsmore like you are not implementing NAV but a separate piece of software completely [:D]
I will stop writing now as you seem not to be returning here, but being non-technical should not stop the obvious opening question which is “what the hell are we doing?” with a supplementary of “Why?” [:D]
Yeah that happens sometimes on Forums it it boils down to how you word things. Especially on this forum … as it is a help forum and people’s number one concern is to give you advice … even if it’s not “directly” related to your original query. People have opinions …
Don’t take it wrong, nobody here is trying to be negative toward you. I think they just want to make sure you succeed in your endeavors while making sure you’re aware of things… watching out for you in a sense. We have to be careful about how personal we get on the forums and always remember that nobody here knows any of us beyond the handle we chose. It’s extremely hard to guage somebody’s ability or understanding of things just by a bit of text on a site so you’re bound to get some mixed reviews depending on how you present your information =)
If you want more finite answers to your questions, word them more carefully in a way that will leave less room for misinterpretation, and you’ll have more success that way.